I do not intend for this message to be heard by ALL people, but however you look at it, I'm not using hyperbole (the nutritional data are direct from a nutritional database) and I'm not using “unbalanced arguments.” Everything I wrote above is factual. None of the facts are distorted. They are all verifiable. They are all cited in the book. This is such a simple and straightforward blog entry that I'm shocked that people have had such a hard time with it. I'm not even sure what there is to debate here. It is all patently true.

As for the cheese-carrots comparison, I don't think it is inapt. I'm talking about the health aspects of two different foods. Think about how little a cup of diced cheddar cheese is. In reality, if you're at a party where cubed cheese is served, it is conceivable that you could eat a cup of diced cubes without really too much effort. Well, at least when I ate dairy products, this was something of which I was capable. Your point about comparing it to nut butter is a fine one, but personally, I try to limit my intake of calorie-dense fatty foods, and when I was trying to cut back, there actually were times I would reach for a cup of baby carrots instead, because they were just as convenient.

What is inapt and also borderline offensive is your comparison of the “meatatarian” argument and my argument. Many things in the “meatatarian” “argument” are instantly refutable on a factual basis. Others are matters of opinion or are debated within scientific and academic circles and can be readily argued against. What I find offensive about your comparison is that everything — can I say it again? — EVERYTHING I post above is factual. I distort nothing. I do not engage in hyperbole. Most milk contains pus. Many cheeses are not even vegetarian. Large dairy operations are the norm, and the use of RFID tags to track herd productivity cycles is not new technology in the “industry,” and has been widely used for a very long time. Dairy calves are sent to slaughter young in most cases. Cheese is not health food. (Even half a cup — a modest amount of cheese — contains almost 70% of one's RDA for saturated fat.) I don't need hyperbole: I have the truth.

The thing is this: if the truth hurts people, it hurts them. I'm frustrated by these comments because they seem to imply that I'm wielding some kind of propaganda machine here, and I'm not. I'm presenting an impassioned argument, sure, but I write plainly about the issues, and the facts are irrefutable. If that bothers people, there's not a lot I can do about that.

Like all writing, this writing is done for a specific audience in a specific context. Were I trying to convince everyone and anyone of the problems with cheese, I'd go about it differently, but somehow I assumed that most people reading this blog would be vegans, and would get it

With that, I'm closing the comments, because I don't have time to monitor them any longer.

I know that people have this idea in their heads that tilling the earth and running machinery kills rodents as well, but we have yet to find a dead rodent where we plow. It makes me curious to know where these numbers come from when I plant my food with my own hands and am 100% certain that I have not killed an animal to do it.

Understand, I'm only offering constructive criticism; if you want you message to be reached by ALL people (not just vegetarians, vegans, and the lactose-intolerant, which would be preaching to the choir), hyperbole and unbalanced arguments only serve to discredit the message, with the average non-vegan dismissing it as propaganda. They won't believe it and they won't relate. Basically, it's like a “meatatarian” giving the argument that:

“veganism is bad for you, it will make you sick weak and anemic, eventually you will die, because humans need certain amino acids found only in animal products in order to live, and anyways, humans evolved to be omnivores, just look at our teeth and digestive systems, it's natural, and therefore veganism is unnatural – also, cows are delicious and have been bred by humans for so long that they have evolved to survive only as livestock (it's true, there have been studies and documentaries!), so really we need to eat them. And they are yummy. Plus, when was the last time your mouth watered when you smelled a barbequed carrot, as opposed to a barbecqued t-bone?”.

Convincing argument? I didn't think so either.

Veganic (vegan and organic) farmers are the pioneers of the vegan world right now. They are paving the way in using techniques that significantly minimize harming animals (no-till farming, green manures that do not use fertilizers with animal byproducts, acknowledging and allowing a certain percentage of crops to be eaten by wildlife as the result of encroaching on their habitat, etc.).

Veganic gardening and farming are very slowly catching on, though they are not catching on nearly as fast as they should among those who claim the desire not to harm animals. I wish more vegans (and most certainly those with high exposure and influence) were more loudly advocating and promoting this new way to grow food. There are scarce veganic farms here in the US, and that is because the only people in existence who are going to influence a rise in veganic farms are vegans themselves (not omnivores or vegetarians, that's for sure), and right now the subject doesn't seem to register high on the vegan community's agenda. So until all of us vegans start piping up about it, we will get what we don't ask for — organic farms that do not care much about the animals they kill (via machinary), exploit (by using fertilizers that consist of excrement from animals in factory farms), and enslave (using cows and chickens for closed-system manure for fertilizing crops or breeding them for profit as Happy Meat).

Veganic farming/gardening is the morally sound alternative to organic food. Why not start getting the word out about veganic farming so that more people (vegans at least) might actually be interested in starting veganic farms or gardens? We should be encouraging more people to grow their own food at home in their kitchen and garden — veganically. Why not dodge the cruel system imposed upon us as best we can? Or should we sit back and just accept a morally inferior mode of food production?

I don't agree much with what JW wrote, but the fact that he used the killing of animals on organic farms to dismiss veganism caused me to respond. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why those vegans who already know about veganic farms/gardens (and the cruelty of organic farms) are not trying to promote more awareness about it! It's not an idea that's going to detract from what we are already advocating, but rather enhance it and support it. In the least, we vegans should currently be discussing the topic at length — spreading awareness about it among ourselves, sharing thoughts/resources, and looking for ways to make it a complete reality. I fear that many vegans (in the know) think it's asking too much. To say it's asking too much to promote and participate in cruelty-free produce is like saying its too much to ask people to stop wearing leather belts or wool skirts (or all the other choices that we vegans are prepared to make in order to keep our actions aligned with our beliefs). Animals are dying and being exploited on organic farms without any concern on the part of the farmers. Every animal counts (whether from a factory farm or an organic farm). It's time we vegans wake up to the reality.

I know if an icon among the vegan community, like Francione, started to become more vocal about veganic farms/food, that would be the moment awareness would shoot through the roof and spread pretty quickly among the vegan (online) community (and then beyond). If someone promotes veganic ways in their outreach, it doesn't mean that it is imperative that the person has to start eating veganically grown food overnight in order to be considered true to their morals. I know some people don't have the time to start their own veganic garden, and there are few people who have access to produce from veganic farms. But perhaps, in the least, by spreading the the idea, the movement will start gathering proper momentum so that more information about veganic gardening, more veganic farms, and more evolving ideas will become more readily accessible. The sooner we start talking about it, the sooner more veganic farms are going to start emerging. If we don't ask for it or talk about it, nothing will happen.

Sorry – I know that a discussion on cheese is not exactly the proper place to present ideas on veganic farming. But I thought JW might like to know that there are alternatives to organic farming that are becoming more and more aligned with vegan ideals. I see it as an ever evolving process. I think abolitionists are doing a great job getting the word out about veganism, but (as one of the elements of vegan outreach) I think pushing for veganic produce is the missing link that could complete the puzzle. It's the next step if one is to come to a moral and logical conclusion in the quest to throw off the chains of animals as property. Are we vegans waiting for someone else to come along and promote/push awareness about it? Because no one will.

Truth is, the book takes as its audience people who are predisposed to the animal rights position. We assume that you'd not pick up a book on going vegan for ethical reasons unless you were interested in such a thing.

Regardless, we can't be everything to everyone, and we don't try to be. Thanks for the thoughts, and I hope you do enjoy the 2nd ed.

Can't wait to read the book!

1. The excerpt above is careful to say “if this hypothesis is true” in response to what is in the book a cited study underway pulled from a government grants database about the casomorpin connection. I don't have the citation in front of me now, but I can post it later when I have the file.

2. I cannot say for certain that all milk everywhere always contains pus. I can, however, say that most milk in most places will contain pus because of the nature of dairy production. Mastitis is a common condition in dairy herds, and pus is a by-product of the infection. Because the milk that 99%+ of consumers buy is pooled and aggregated prior to processing, most milk will thus likely contain pus. This is not something that I recall having been controversial in my dairy science classes, nor should it be controversial here. I don't get what the problem is: I say that the pus is biologically inactive, but there's still pus in the milk. Parse it however you want, but the metabolism of nutrients by plants is intrinsically different than the production of milk. In any case, the “uncertainty” is purposeful, because it is possible that some milk somewhere does not have pus in it. Nevertheless, if you know anything about modern dairy production, you'll know as well as I do that it is safe to say that pus is present in the vast majority of milk.

3. On the rennet issue, I'm not sure which part of “though there are vegetarian rennets synthesized by other means,” you did not understand. I know quite well that there are GMO rennets, but I also note that it is not always easy to find out which cheeses use these.

4. First, “impune” is spelled “impugn.” As for your bucolic vision of farming, there certainly are local farmers who treat their animals better than factory farms do. But the vast majority of all animals in production are animals in factory farms. Even if all animals were owned by farmers who treated them well, the essential problem would remain: animals are merely property, and as property, they have no interests that can ever override the interests of their owners. The facts of what I write are clear, and spelled out in so many places I'm not even sure where to begin to tell you to look. Indeed, these are the methods of dairy management I learned years ago as an undergrad. There's no denying that modern herd management uses RFIDs on cows. There's no denying that “spent” cows become hamburger and probably a million other parts. There's no denying that in many dairy operations — especially the larger ones that provide most of the milk most people drink — keep cows under a single roof for most of their lives. These are all facts, and if people find them abhorrent, that's good, because the situation is quite abhorrent. The little producer you prop up as some kind of model is the exception to the rule; even these producers themselves admit that, and that's part of their draw. If you look, you will see that I “education people”[sic] with facts.

5. I apologize if you misunderstood my part of my paragraph about the nutritional content of cheese. I said: “…which is 139% of amount recommended for total daily consumption by the United States government. And really, do you think those figures haven’t already been manipulated by decades of dairy and meat industry intervention in the government?” In the manipulation, I'm referring not to the scientifically observable calorie and fat content of cheese, but instead to the RDAs, which have always been a political tool. This is well-documented in many places, but probably the best summary of private-sphere influence in this kind of policy-making was written by Marion Nestle. The book is called “Food Politics.” I suggest you check it out.

Everything I write above is verifiable, and in the book itself, I do offer many references, as I do in the rest of my published writing. You may not like that modern animal agriculture operates the way it does, but I'm not sure what to say. I hate the way it and the rest of animal agriculture operates, so I have removed myself from that system to the greatest extent possible.

With that, I'm done with this pointless exercise. You obviously have no willingness to engage these arguments honestly or thoughtfully, and it seems clear to me that your arguing here is really just some kind of way for you to let out some kind of frustrations you have about “the wife” (your term) being a vegetarian. Instead of taking it out on us, you should take that up with her.

Oh, and learn how to spell “impugn.”

The reference to pus, “almost always contains pus” why the uncertainty for an author so intent on being an being an authority? On one hand you try to frighten people with the idea that they are consuming pus but then you turn around and admit there is no illness associated with consuming pasteurized pus – is there any documentation regarding dangers associated with consuming pus? Not that I want to consume it either but our vegetable use various manures and no one is suggesting we are eating excrement that the plant uptakes.

Rennet, most industrial cheesemaking in North America uses GMO-Microbial rennet because it is less expensive than animal rennet. GMO-Microbial rennet is not an animal product. While I disagree with the use of genetically modified ornamisms, this is just one more point in why I called this knee-jerk and immature.

Some farmers do care for the animals in their care and the cheeses made by these artisans most likely surpass the living conditions of factory farmed animals and although I can agree that this is still animal exploitation I take umbrage with the language of fear regarding slave ownerfarmer, radio frequency identification tag, that the cows never go outside and after a short miserable life the cow becomes hamburger. This impunes thoughtful considerate producers at the expense of making a dramatic point and education people with facts not fear.

My biggest complaint is the suggestion that industry intervention in the government has somehow manipulated the true calorie count and fat content of cheese. What backs this up? Conjecture? Mistrust for large systems? How did these industries coerce universities, other governments, and independent agencies to go along with this conspiracy to hide the true disasterous health ramifications of evil cheese?

Hubris indeed.